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MrPurple
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 629
Cricket Club: Portcullis

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodder wrote:
Personally I think the Win/Lose proposal has been hamstrung in the past due in part to the amendments and counter amendments in relation to the scoring system – just find out if the clubs want rid of the draw - let the powers that be decide on the points.


I understand your thinking but there is no basis under which this could happen. Firstly, the only way the constitution can be changed is by a majority vote of the club representatives. Secondly, you couldn't ask clubs to vote on changes to the rules without them knowing exactly what the changes will be.

It isn't the Management Committee or the Rule Rommittee that need to get serious about anything. It's the clubs who need to sit down and come up with a workable way forward since they are the only ones with a vote. Only they can affect change in the ACA, because they ARE the ACA.
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Dodder
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008
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Cricket Club: Inverurie

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your right Purps the Committees don't have to get serious. However a suggestion has been made by Gilly that we use the Rules Committee as an avenue for getting a proposal to the AGM rather than the 3 club method. Therefore it would appear at least 1 member of the Rules Committee is taking the current problem faced by a large proportion of ACA clubs seriously regarding falling player membership numbers.

This is why I think a yes/no ballot paper (or email) is initially used regarding the Draw (and other proposals being touted about) so that when the clubs write back it gives a definitive answer about these proposals from the clubs without the argument being clouded by the detail prior to any firmed up proposal going to the AGM. Of course this ballot idea might also be a waste of time and no one answers but at least it will be one further avenue investigated.

Should the Ballot come back showing a majority of clubs agreeing with any of the proposals then these proposals should be brought to the AGM by the Rules Committee with the finer detail added.

Using this method a proposal would go to the AGM backed unofficially in principle by the majority of clubs and all other proposals would be discarded.

Actually, the membership clubs don't need to be balloted and any proposal could be brought to the AGM by the Rules Committee however I think the clubs should be sounded out to ensure what individuals on here are proposing are in fact what the majority of clubs want and not just anyones or my own individual whim.
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Art
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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Cricket Club: artisans

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dod a ballot would seem to be a good idea so why don't we use a similar method to the recent Council Survey?

They (The Council) recently set up a survey on sporting facilities and Clubs were strongly encouraged to participate.

Why don't we/The Rules Committee/whoever set up a similar survey requesting response from Clubs on key questions introduced via this froum?

e.g. Questions on the Principle rather than the details regarding The Draw, Composition of Grades (Reserve Grades, Number Clubs in each Grade, Saturday Cup Games, etc), Eligibility of Regional/National Players in Grade Comps, and so on.

This would then, as Dod says, provide a gauge of what kind of proposal would be likely to be supported by vote in the AGM. The detail of this can then be worked on by the Rules Committee.

We could then avoid the situation where proposals are more or less blindly put before the AGM, voted down, and then we're back to the frustration of square one with status quo retained for at very least another one year.

So - a survey to Clubs, backed by the ACA with as much encouragement to complete it given as was given to the Council one?
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AS
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Cricket Club: Inverurie

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK how about this.

Gilly appoints a small committee, as representative of the grades as possible (ie much wider than the forum) with the remit of coming up with a proposal or proposals to improve the structure of grades cricket and the proposal(s) must be beautiful in their simplicity.
The committee then find a couple of clubs who are willing to propose them to the agm.
The proposals are aired to all clubs well in advance of the agm so that any dissenting clubs can put forward a proposal of their own if they wish.
The proposals are voted on at the agm with no discussion whatsoever.

We in the forum support the process by assisting the committee in any way that they request and we back whatever proposal(s) emerge even if they don't match exactly with our individual various views
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Big Bad
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Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Cricket Club: ABERDEENSHIRE ASSOCIATION OF CRICKET OFFICIALS

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've already stated that I'd be more than willing to be on any working committee....

We've an email thread going already between reps from different clubs.

St Ronald, Gordonians, Crescent, Kemnay and Ellon... with Robin and Gilly Copied in...

Proposals listed...

Rule regarding Overseas Amateurs

Activated Draw

Rule regarding eligibility for cup ties and players being cup tied if they play in one competition they cant play in another.

I.E a Gordos player couldn't play Bon Accord Cup then Reid Cup

All suggestions...

But the idea of a working committee is a good one.

I also like the ballot idea too...

Most of all I like the amount of views coming from cricketers new and old on this thread... we are all aware that our game is suffering we NEED to do something about it!
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gilly
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Finally a wee bit of sense. I have taken the liberty of talking with a few people and would like to hold an informal meeting of interested parties at mannofield on Wednesday 29th @ 8:00pm. If people could let me know who is interested and can attend that would be great because time is wearing on. gill-philip@sky.com or philip.gill@globalintegrated.co.uk are both emails which i access regularily, let me know if you can make it. If your going to abuse me use the sky email because the net nanny at work will kick you out of the Global one!!!!

I would like all the guys contributing on this thread to be there, dummies and toys will be provided as will a rather fine pram.

I have taken the liberty of talking to someone outside the general hubbub of Grades cricket for advice and this guy is someone probably unknown to most of you. What I was looking for was a clean view, not prejudiced by being part of the Grades but someone who can look and is involved in the bigger picture of cricket as a whole. He has some great ideas for Grades cricket and will be an independent sounding board for us all. Please take this chance to do something for the grades, or as Dodder says, we are in terminal decline.

Last chance to do something this year guys, please dont let it slip by.
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Rosie
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Joined: 06 Jul 2012
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Cricket Club: Mannofield

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good points being made regarding proposed changes. Whatever happens the draw must go - it puts people off playing the game! League games should be 40 overs per side, 8 overs per bowler, win or lose and start at noon (latest). If a game that started at noon lasted for 80 overs it should still be finished by 18:30 latest - perfect. All cup games should be 20/20 - not many people want to give-up all day Saturday & Sunday for cricket.
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JT
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Joined: 03 May 2012
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Cricket Club: Kintore Cricket Club

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't contributed until now. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that the grades is behind the times and needs to change if it's to survive.

All three proposals suggest by Big Bad seem sensible to me. Banning overseas amateurs and cup-tieing players from multi-team clubs will make things fairer no doubt about it.

Personally I've always hated the draw and would happily get rid of it in favour of 40 over a side, 8-10 overs a bowler games with win/lose/tie the only possible outcomes. (I'd even go so far as to introduce D/L and reduced overs due to the amount of rain we get in the NE, but I can see that being a step too far for most).

However I know that attempts to get rid of the draw have been going around for years and never been successful so I would accept the idea of an "activated draw" as a reasonable compromise if necessary. It's certainly better than the current system.

I actually have reservations about the "Reserve Grade" as I think there's a big difference in quality between, say, Cults/Artisans or 2nd St Ronald in Grade 2 and some of the 2nd and 3rd XI's in Grade 4. This could easily result in too many mismatches which would cause the lesser 2nd XI and 3rd XI sides to lose players. I'd stick with the current league structure, for now at least.

Overall I think the grades needs to be more forward looking, our current format is stuck in the past and it's no wonder so many teams are struggling to attract players as a result. As Kintore skipper I will try to attend the meeting next Wednesday at Mannofield, should be an interesting evening.
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Big Bad
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Cricket Club: ABERDEENSHIRE ASSOCIATION OF CRICKET OFFICIALS

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the cup rules as applied in Scottish Hockey which could be used/amended to suit our cricketing purposes....

Outdoor Cups and Plates
3.3.1 A player may only play for one club in any season.

3.3.2 For the purposes of player eligibility the Cup and related Plate shall be regarded as the same competition.

3.3.3 No player may play for one club team in the National League, Regional League or Reserve League and for a different club team in the Cups or Plates.

3.3.4 No transfers from National League, Regional League or Reserve League teams to Cups or Plates teams shall be authorised after 1 March in each season.

3.3.5 Players may play for a “higher” team in the Cup or Plate, except as specified in 3.3.5. However, once listed on a Match Report Form for a specific team, the player is “cup-tied” to the “higher” team and may not play for any “lower” team in any subsequent round of any Cup or Plate competition.

3.3.6 Players who play for a “lower” team in the Cup or Plate which is eliminated from the competition may play for a “higher” team within their Club in subsequent rounds of the Cup or Plate.

3.3.7 From the round of the last 16 in any Cup, a team that plays an ineligible player shall be expelled from the competition. In earlier rounds the Competitions and Events Manager shall satisfy themselves as to the composition of teams and may take appropriate action concerning any breach of Byelaw 3.3.

3.3.8 Each team in the Scottish Cup may nominate a pool of 11 'bona fide' players (separate from the League pool) who may only play in that team, with the understanding that they are available for selection. If not submitted to the Competitions and Events Manager by the last day of OCTOBER in each season, then the pool of players submitted for the League will be used and the terms of Byelaw 3.2.6 will also apply.
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The Lard
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Joined: 20 May 2010
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Cricket Club: Portcullis

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll attend on Wednesday. Hopefully I'll get Raoul to tag along with me
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StewyD
Play and miss
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Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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Cricket Club: Ellon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, Just joined to get my tuppence in!
Been reading the thread with some interest and thought I would post the points abstract from the North Yorkshire & South Durham league rules which is my old club's league. This is tried and tested and having played just last year find it works brilliantly. I was involved in the most exciting draw for a very long time having just managing to achieve 75% of the runs with 9 wickets down. It basically forces the team batting second to score runs as well as not losing wickets to gain draw points.
I think the weather rules can remain the same as is as think works well
but I think this points system will enhance all teams enjoyment.
My opinion is that if we lose the draw then teams lower in the league could well take the attitude of not seeing the point in turning up just to get beat. We will start seeing games getting scratched as lower placed teams will lose players and could end up seeing their clubs folding altogether.

MATCH REGULATIONS AND POINTS SYSTEM
13a. The Competition should be conducted as follows:-
Matches shall be arranged between the clubs in accordance with the
scheme which has been adopted at the previous Annual General Meeting.
The method of scoring shall be 20 points for a match won. In a drawn or
tied match, if one quarter of the total match overs (any fraction rounded
up) have not been completed in the second innings, both sides shall
receive six points. If one quarter of the total match overs have been
completed in the second innings and the match is drawn, then the draw
points will be allocated as follows:
• The team batting first will receive 8 points and the team batting
second no points if they have scored less than 75% of the first
innings total (rounded down)
• The team batting first will receive 6 points and the team batting
second 2 points if the team batting second score 75% to 90% of the
first innings total (both rounded down).
• The team batting first will receive 4 points and the team batting
second 4 points if the team batting second score more than 90% of
the first innings total (rounded down) and less than the first innings
total. In the event of the scores being equal both sides shall receive 7
draw/tie points irrespective of whether the side batting second are all
out or not.
• In addition, one point will be awarded for every 25 runs scored over
75 (with a maximum of five points) and one for every two wickets
taken. Bonus points will only be awarded to teams that tie, draw or
lose.
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Duke
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Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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Cricket Club: Stonehaven

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents - please accept my apologies as my wife is working Wednesday and I'll be babysitting. I hope you make a good fist of it.

Just to add to Stewy's previous thread I played in an alternate league in the same area, the Durham County league and we played win or lose, with accumulative batting and bowling points to encourage losing teams to keep at it.

I prefer this method, keep it simple and understandable, - that said i do understand Stewy's point.

I'll make my point again, not wishing to go over old ground, that I've now captained for 3 years and NOT ONCE has a toss winning captain elected to bat first. Therefore something is fundamentally wrong with the set up when it's seen as such a disadvantage - but we know that- hence Wednesday's mtg. Good Luck. Be radical.
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Chris
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Joined: 28 Aug 2007
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Cricket Club: Inverurie

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Stewy and Ali here.

If the draw is going to be kept which i'd imagine it will then an activated draw seems to be the best way of improving things.

The 2nd team would need to get a certain percentage of the runs that the first team gets otherwise there'd be no point in it.

So using the rules above if the team batting first scores 200 then the team batting 2nd would need to score 150 or more to qualify for the draw. If they score less than 150 then the draw points would be 8-0

If the team batting 2nd scores between 150 and 180 runs the the points are split 6-2

If the team batting 2nd scores between 181 and 199 then the points are split 4-4.

Seems like a winner to me!
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MrPurple
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
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Cricket Club: Portcullis

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree. The reason we have the draw in the first place is because of compromise. The "activated draw" is yet another compromise that embeds the draw even more firmly into the ACA and will ensure it is a feature of the grades for decades to come. In any case, it was voted on in 2009 and rejected.

The draw is fundamentally wrong in limited overs cricket. Stick to your guns and consign it to the dustbin of history.
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The Grizzly Bore
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Cricket Club: THE BONS

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agree with Purps. do away with the draw altogether. bring our playing conditions into line with the world and have one day cricket rules for one day cricket.
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