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Spirit of the Game
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beardy
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Cricket Club: Fraserburgh

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Spirit of the Game Reply with quote

I am sure I am raising an issue that has been discussed at length before but I think it needs to be re-visited.

We played against Gordonians yesterday (22 July) in the semi-final of the Reid Cup. This, as we all know, is a Grade 3 competition which has been running for many years now.

The team played by Gordonians was no where near the same team we played in the league on 2 June. Two of their batsman scored 90+, one of these normally plays in the Premier Division of the Strathmore Union and the other scored 131 for their Grade 2 team earlier in the season. Neither of these plays appear anywhere in the results for Gordonians' Grade 3 games this year.

It was clear these were batsman at a much higher level than Grade 3 and this was reflected in their score of 281. This from a team we bowled out for 14 earlier in the season.

Now, I know there is nothing in the rules to stop this but come on lads, we all know this is wrong. I am not blaming any of the Gordonian players we played against who were, individually, a good bunch of lads.

The lower Grade cup competitions are totally de-valued and might as well be scrapped if this continues. New rules must be introduced to stop this.

Come on lads, we all love this game. Lets play it in the right spirit.
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Raoul
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Cricket Club: Portcullis CC

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only is this completely unfair for single team clubs in lower grades trying to win some silverware, it's a slap in the face for the guys who turn out week in, week out for Auchterturra 3rds, working hard to improve their team and then get dropped in favour of guys they have never seen before as soon as there is half a chance of a trophy.

I've been on both sides of it and it just isn't cricket.

It adds extra excitemnet when you are fgihting for promotion and trying to get a decent 11 together for a vital match. "I wonder if we will recognise anybody from the grades match earlier in the season, when we stuffed 'em, or the Johnstone cup quarter-final game when we were in the pub by 4pm?"
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Bring back LBW's
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Cricket Club: Gordonians Cricket Club

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Spirit of the Game Reply with quote

Guys, you make valid points but it would be fair to say every Club seems to struggle to get sides out on a Sunday these days. 3 of the earlier 6 matches in the Reid Cup saw walkovers and Fraserburgh came through by this method against Dunecht. Gordonians had 2 cup sides out yesterday and we picked our normal G3 and G4 players who were available including 3 juniors and a girl in the G4 side, who were unfortunate to also have 2 juniors call off including one on Sunday morning. It has helped that the majority of G4 cup matches are now played on a Saturday and therefore the option to strengthen teams is not there. Gordonians could actually have strengthened further yesterday as additional higher level players were available. If we did not have the option to use these additional players then it would be likely that we would scratch every Cup match which serves even less purpose. I should point out that our Grade 2 cup side (which included players from our G3 and G4 sides) were beaten by a strengthened Grammar side (who have also struggled to get Sunday sides out in the past) and the names I see for Huntly yesterday will also be fairly unfamiliar in Grade 3. The G3 Knightriders team also included players regularly seen in their 1st team so this is not just a Gordonians problem. I'm sure most of the aforementioned teams have tried to keep to the spirit of the game but it is not easy when the alternative is scratching and nobody getting any cricket.
Good luck to Portcullis in the G4 final, and it will be good to see a different winner in the G2 cup competition where Cults/Artisans have in the past also struggled to get their usual G2 players out on a Sunday.
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Urqy
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Cricket Club: Mannofield

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off topic - which girl you got playing for you? Always interested to here of more lassies playing up here!
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beardy
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Cricket Club: Fraserburgh

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Spirit of the game Reply with quote

I hear what you are saying but it is a very poor excuse for using players who regularly play at a much higher level. If G3 players were available, why were they playing in the G4 cup competition? Even they were playing at a lower level than normal.

The team we played yesterday included only 2 players who played against us in the G3 league game. One was the captain from the league game who appears to have been demoted for the cup and the captaincy given to a Strathmore player. I would say there were at least 6 Strathmore players and the rest were G2 players. One of the Strathmore players did not even know which Grades the lower Gordonian teams were in!

At the end of the day, it is Gordonians 4th team which is in Grade 3 and it is that team which should play in the Reid Cup. If, just like every single team club, the G3 Gordonians dont have a team then they have to scratch.

I agree it is not only Gordonians doing this and it is not a new problem. I saw it happening when I played for Fraserburgh in the early nineties when 2nd and 3rd teams were introduced into the Grades. Maybe it is time to change the rules and then everyone will know where they stand.
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Gman
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Cricket Club: Mannofield

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Give Guys A Chance Reply with quote

Sunday saw a star born, after our Aberdeenshire cup match falling foul to the weather last week we played Ellon away this Sunday. A good spirited encounter saw 13 year old Aaron Grayson take 6-24 to win Mannofield the cup encounter. To comment on the above strengthening of cup teams does it not boil down to certain clubs having too many teams to put out ?
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Bring back LBW's
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Cricket Club: Gordonians Cricket Club

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Spirit of the Game Reply with quote

Sorry for confusing things Beardy. Our Grade 3 players who were available played in the Grade 3 cup match and the Grade 4 players who were available played in the Grade 4 match. Our Grade 3 side is effectively our 3rd XI and the Grade 4 side is our 4th XI. Any gaps in the sides have to be filled from the 1st and 2nd XI's, although as I said, we had other higher standard players available who we could have drafted in. I'm sure our Grade 3 players will be flattered to be considered Grade 2 standard. Our normal Grade 3 Captain and Vice Captain played along with, I think, 3 other regular Grade 3 players and another player who has only played the once this season and would normally play G2. I think we only had 1 player involved who has played regularly for the Strathmore team and the remainder have been playing G2 lately. Not everybody is available to play both Saturday and Sunday and I'm sure this causes problems for every side, particularly when we have been asking guys to make themselves available for the last few Sundays which have been rained off on the day itself.
I suspect virtually every Club who puts out more than one XI would struggle on a Sunday to replicate the exact same Grade side who played on a Saturday. If strict limitations were in place then it is possible that Fraserburgh and Crescent may have had walkovers all the way to the G3 Final. As it was, 44 players got a game of cricket on Sunday, including some of our juniors, and it would have been zero if limitations had been in place. As I said, we were on the receiving end of this in our Grade 2 cup match against Grammar but we would much rather have played a game than have had them scratch as they could not muster enough G2 standard players.
I did hear one suggestion that we just have one overall Grades cup competition with each Club only allowed to enter one team. This would reduce the amount of cricket played and the lower league single team clubs would take a bit of a tanking at the hands of the likes of Bon Accord, but this is probably the only way to obtain the scenario you are looking for. Another option would be to reorganise the whole Grades structure so that cup ties were primarily played on a Saturday, as they are in Grade 4, but this would again reduce the amount of cricket played.
Urqy, our girl is an improving beginner, nets twice a week, plays G4 every Saturday and probably averages about 0.5. She took a catch on Sunday, loves her cricket and does an excellent scorebook unlike most of the guys.
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Urqy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant - good to hear she is training and playing every week! Very Happy
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beardy
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Joined: 23 Jul 2012
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Cricket Club: Fraserburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Spirit of the game Reply with quote

Maybe the answer is for clubs with teams in the Strathmore Union and the Grades to register players with one or the other at the beginning of each season but not both. That would solve the problem of the gap in class between players in the Strathmore Union Premier Division and the lower Grades and at least the lower Grades cup competitions would be fairer.

What does everyone think?
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The Grizzly Bore
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Cricket Club: THE BONS

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody likes these sort of shenanigans but the truth of it is that these clubs should be free to run their clubs to suit their aims and ambitions and we should just grin and bear it. There's already far too much restriction on who can or can't play.
The Grades is a recreational association and should be a lot looser about it's rules.
As someone who has been defeated in the Aberdeenshire cup final by Gordonians, a side relegated the same season, filled with Strathie players, I can honestly say my club had no problem with what they chose to do, we fully expected it.
When I played in Grade 3, Mannofield frequently filled their side with Shire players and even Scottish internationals, it happened, we rather enjoyed the experience.
I would say, however, that you should keep moaning and groaning about this as these clubs need to know that their actions may be good for them but they should carry some responsibility for maintaining the integrity of the Grades they are participating in.
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Gman
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Cricket Club: Mannofield

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply To Beardy Reply with quote

I understand where you are coming from with the registration idea for Strathmore and separately for Grades but this can never be I am afraid.

If you do this you then prevent guys from being dropped for poor form to the Grades from the Strathmore Team and vice versa a player doing well in the Grades cant progress, the rule would mean half way through a season we would be out of eligble players to field. We are 1 Club and every player has the opportunity to play at all levels and it must stay this way, the SNCL rule also hinders us from giving guys a game in Grade 1 when out of form.

Contrary to common belief we are very carefull in who we select to play at every level and before the playing of C Smith in Grade 1 is brought up please bear in mid this is a local guy born and raised in the North East who played Grades as a Kid who represented his country as an amautuer and then not allowed to play grades 3 full seasons after last international game is that fair?
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Lets improve the grades
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Spirit of the Game Reply with quote

Well you know it's nice to win cups and achieve goals participating in a sport you enjoy playing but at the end of the day it's a sport and should be played in a sporting manner. This is annual discussion which will reach no conclusion as i can see both points of view here...
Questions to ask yourself... is it better to play cricket in the cup competitions with the odds stacked against you or not? Well you can look on it as a challenge give it a real go this year and next year and more grudgingly the next year eventually though you inevitably come to the conclusion you can do something better apart from providing practise matches for higher grade players entirely up to the individual but lets not call it the grade 1,2,3 or 4 cup, no lets be honest may as well just have an open competition and forget a grade based one if it continues...as it will.
Unless the grades make a stand and fix this issue for the good of the game...how about "no player who has played in a higher level grade or any strathie game in the current season should be allowed to turn out for a lower level cup game"... end of story each teams grade team or strathie team play in their own grade of cricket cup competition thats it simple... spirit of the game !
It's only the cup games i'm speaking about here...
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Art
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Cricket Club: artisans

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Game Reply with quote

I sympathise with both sides of the argument as I've been a long term player from a one-team-club and i'm now a second team organiser from a two-team-club. So i've experience of being on both sides.

To make a point about the last post:

Lets improve the grades wrote:
how about "no player who has played in a higher level grade or any strathie game in the current season should be allowed to turn out for a lower level cup game"...


I'm afraid that simply wouldn't work and would lead to an even higher level of scratchings in our cups (which has been at worrying proportions for quite some time).

Speaking for my own club, we've got people who just want to play second team cricket and, the crux of my point here, only want to play it on a Saturday. Family commitments, ageing bodies, work, other interests, etc.

On a Sunday, when we're putting a second team side together, we firstly ask the genuine second team players the question of - do you want to play. Result is that we've got maybe four or five.

We then have to go to the firsts who, by their very nature, tend to be younger lads with fewer commitments outside cricket.

So if you were to force second teams to play second team players only on a Sunday then - personally from my team's point of view - we'd be as well withdraw from the cup right here and now.

My own solution would be to do something where the league sizes are reduced to 8 teams and cup games are played on a Saturday. I've floated this in the past, in detail on here, and i think it'd solve a number of issues with our game.
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Pubcat
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Cricket Club: Stonehaven

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right Art, the only solution is to play cup games on a Saturday
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The Lard
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Cricket Club: Portcullis

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot speak about the Broch match against Gordo's but I can speak about the Portcullis match against Gordo's as I played in it.
When we seen their side arrive at the Shedd I admit a few of us were muttering about the better players in their side. We were thinking 'Here we go again'. Gordonians did put out a stronger team than we had faced in the League. I was especially worried when Andrew Flintoff started changing into his whites! (JOKE!)
We had to bowl field and bat well to stand a chance which we duly did. However there is one point probably missed out on here. Gordonians mixed their batting order putting 4th Grade Players with higher Grade Players. If their only policy was to win the match, the higher grade players would have been stockpiled in the top order and the G4 players would have been basically fielding fodder. There were a few youngsters in their side and Courtney, their female player, also batted at four. Their side was Captained by their regular Grade Four Captain Aaron Mundin.
I think the higher grade players were brought in to make up the numbers. I also think Gordo's policy with their G4 side was to bring those players on. The senior players I saw were encouraging the G4 players and that appeared to be just as important a role as to winning the Cup Match.
I know some of you will say I am only saying that because we won but that is not the case. I would have came on here anyway and made these points.
One final point. This Cup Tie took four or five attempts to get played because of the crappy weather. As Portcullis's Secretary we had great trouble getting players together for each of those matches. Each time we managed to get eleven.
Perhaps Grade 3 Cup Matches (The Reid Cup) should be played on Saturdays as well. It does work for the Johnston Rose bowl.
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