Aberdeenshire Cricket Association :: Forum

[Greeny]

[Art]

Any news from your Think Tank, Gilly? What's came out of that in terms of improvement ideas? Anything in the pipeline?

[Lets improve the grades]

I'd like to begin this week on a very positive note, it's really good to read so many different views and good ideas. I know there are a few things which cause widely differing opinions but we shouldn't let those things cause other good proposals and ideas to grind to a halt... i'd like to see some individual ideas which could lead to proposals discussed in separate topis on this forum. If you agree or disagree please go onto that topic and express your opinion in a friendly manner if you disagree be constuctive say why you disagree and if possible a way round that...

I'm going to start (i hope others will join in) with what i think is a great idea from gilly... a list of unregistered junior players that clubs can call on if they are short of players any week and providing safeguards are in place can offer some juniors a grades game...

As far as this topic is concerned it would be great to see the cups played on a saturday but without league reconstruction i don't think it's possible...
20/20 and a cup finals day is also a good idea to rejuvenate the cups
also yes register for each grade that you play in to bring fairness to all cup games (just ask beardy if you disagree with this or any proposal to restrict player movement...it's only the cup games im talking about here)

[gilly]

here are some thoughts from players. They shall remain anon at present.


I can't speak for the group but this is something i feel very strongly about. The league is great, the teams, the diverse pitches, the people, the banter is fantastic and the endurance over local weather is admirable. But the draw format has irked me since the first game i played. I've noted the toss winner always chooses to field - regardless of any conditions or circumstances - the walk to the wicket is futile - it therefore stands to reason something is fundamentally flawed in the draw set up. But rather than work the tedious mathmatics of realigning draw points i propose that simple is best! Keep it basic so all parties understand. Play to win. Something along the lines of:-

20 points win.
Lose - upto 5 bowling points, 2 points per wicket; upto 5 points batting, say a point from 100 - 200 in 25 runs windows.
Match drawn, i.e. equal score - 15 points each.
Match off / abandoned - status quo using present % system.

That's sounds too simple (Can't be right)........

I'll step right off the fence and nail my colours to the win/lose game. I am wholly convinced the win/lose was the better and i fully believe it is even more suited to the Aberdeen Grades. I appreciate tradition and the utopic history but we must move on to keep/attract players. save the local game.......and soon!

We've got to change, we've got to regenerate and we've got to get with the times. We need to realise that while we die hards will gladly stay on a pitch till 8pm most people now won't for various reasons. They want their Saturday night, their wifes/girlfriends (boyfriends even), bosses, mates and the pub want their Saturday night. Playing the last hour of a game whose result was concluded 25 overs ago when the skipper threw the shutters down after losing 5 quick wickets is just losing us players. Only last Saturday an ex player in his mid 20's told me why he'd stopped playing - for one of the above reasons (the pub, not his boyfriend). I've further examples but to the point - win/lose will if anything shorten the game (generally) or at least make the outcome worthwhile. (The only downside is the rare occassion when a strong batting team elects to bat, put on 300 and then bowls the oppo out for 50 but that's simply a class division and the 4 league basis will level that out.)

Furthermore we might also consider reducing to 40 overs ( i certainly wouldn't go any less, unless captains agree beforehand due to weather conditions). no bowler can bowl any more than 1/4 of the alloted innings overs etc. Again this will see matches finish before 19:30 and again we'll have a result.
_________________
And there rests the case......................................................... of fine red wine

[gilly]

If you're easily offended look away now!

Ramblings of an old foggy to follow: No clues as to who mind!!!!

• We need to make cricket an enjoyable way to spend one's leisure time.
o For most in the Grades their cricket is about exercise and enjoyment and a release from work/studies - i.e. primarily recreational cricket although most probably do want a competitive element.
o For a few at clubs in what was the SNCL and/or Strathie it can be about players striving to improve their game and progress to higher playing standards but even then that does not apply to all of the members of these clubs.
• From an SDCC point of view our 4th XI (SD/QX last year) should function as the starter point for youngsters in the transition from junior cricket to senior cricket
o For those it is quite important to learn about crease occupancy as without staying in the middle one cannot score runs
o Players learn nothing from having a yahoo and throwing away one's wicket so "we" have tried to get relative beginners to value their wicket
o The existence of the draw has allowed youngsters to learn the crease occupancy aspect of the game without feeling under pressure to have a yahoo.
o "We" (that's the mentors within that 4th XI) like to win but we see the longer term value of letting relative beginners grow within our sport.
• I've got a hankering to return to three leagues for 1st XIs and one for 2nd XIs - OK that's 3rd XI = QX/SD and 4th XI = SD/QX for SDCC and similar for Shire & Gordos.
o G1-G3 should dispense with the draw
o This 2nd XI league would be a "development league" and retain the draw
• SNCL was 50 overs/side, S&PCU is 45 overs/side in the Premier and fewer in lower leagues
o I favour 40 or 45 overs/side win/lose in G1-G3
o I'm not clear on a points structure but can scheme something by referring to SNCL, S&PCU or NoSCA point systems.
• A word of caution about reducing the overs available to the batting side as I think either G4 or G5 was reduced to 35 overs/side a decade or so back and often too few batsmen got a chance to bat - e.g. some selfish fossils occupied the crease for their own gratification!
• Another thought about reducing the overs available to the batting side is that bowlers are usually rationed to 1/5 of the available overs but batsmen can gorge themselves for the full allocation! (NB: I have never had that problem)
o Creating cricket matches where participants feel like they have contributed is what I'm driving at.
 Who wants a radical rule in league cricket that batsmen have to retire after the scoring short that takes them to or past 50 runs but can return in the order of their retirement at the fall of the last wicket?
o I'm not suggesting that everyone must bowl as the thoughts of a top batsman gorging on pies from a person with a pulse of sorts forcibly extracted from a local hostelry would probably not lead to said person making up number again.
• Entry to the Grades Cups should not be compulsory if they are to continue on Sundays as the rash of scratchings over the years shows little inclination to play on Sundays across the Grades.
o I like the suggestion of T20 round-robin events with A-v-B, B-v-C and C-v-A being played at a single venue - hmmm, hankerings for the Scottish League Cup of the 60s/70s.
o I'd use the baseball approach to batting order in these round-robins so if only batsmen 1-6 bat in the first game then number 7 & 8 would open in game two.
• I have previously advocated a cross-Grades cup competition where G4 sides kick it off in R1, G3 join in R2, G2 in R3, G1 clubs join in R4 with those competing in "national competitions" joining in R5. This format minimizes the chance of mismatches like the G1 champions meeting the G4 basement side.
o Just coz we've got some flowerpots which have traditionally been competed for in cup competition doesn't mean that we can't "retire" some of said flowerpots!
• I suspect that the quality of the scorebooks in most Grades matches makes Duckworth-Lewis a non-starter so we'd have to think carefully before we designed a scheme for weather-shortened fixtures.
• SNCL and Strathie both make provision for shortening both innings if weather delays the start or interferes in mid-innings thereby safeguarding the match end time
o SNCL even penalized bowling sides if they took longer that a pre-defined time to bowl their overs but the absence of official umpires in most Grades matches probably rules that out.
o "We" could look at how SNCL/S&PCU/NoSCA rules cater for matches when weather interferes.

Now over to junior cricket:
• Being active in local primary schools in one way to develop a pathway for youngsters into local cricket clubs
o It's also one way to try to safeguard your club - doing nothing allowing the membership to age will have inevitable consequences.
o Cricket Scotland is looking for ways to support clubs who can demonstrate a pathway from school to club - this can include provision of coaching resources during school hours when most of us are at work/studying.
• Join ACSCDG (Aberdeen City/Shire Cricket Development Group) to learn more about how your club can benefit from running a junior section.
• Kwik Cricket is a good starter for youngsters as it's all about participation and it's a relatively short format taking around 45 minutes/game.
• 3 cornered Kwik Cricket Festivals can be arranged with A-v-B, B-v-C and C-v-A being played at a single venue - on Sundays with BBQ, gimmicks to hook kids and parents
o Hooking parents is important
o Parents catapulting kids over the wall and not staying to watch their kids is not the best approach - that's akin to running a cheap crèche!
• Putting back into a sport from which one has derived lots of enjoyment can be quite rewarding
o Coaching course are available through Cricket Scotland
 We've had our quota in NE Scotland in recent years so this year's equivalent is being run in Perth
 Aberdeen Sports Council will cover 50% of coach development costs so clubs can quickly recoup the ASC £25 annual sub.
o Disclosure Scotland and PVG are not that intrusive - only those who are unsuitable for working with youngsters have anything to fear!
• Traditionally U13/U15/U17 cricket has been played on midweek evenings but distance can present logistical problems
• 3 cornered regional festivals on Sundays (if senior cricket was cleared out of the way) could provide better playing opportunities that on chilly/driech evenings.
• Clubs with active junior sections should achieve TOPClub accreditation via Cricket Scotland
o Aberdeen City Council has a similar scheme called ClubCAP
o Bodies which offer grants require that clubs have TOPClub or ClubCAP accreditation
• Anyone heard of Street Cricket? http://www.streetchance.org/about
• JB alluded to scope for the start time for senior games to be delayed if there were junior games in the morning prior to the senior game
o In the 80s there was a rule introduced allowing a 30 minute delay in match start time if the senior match was preceded by a junior fixture thereby allowing "adult helpers" and "junior players" to reach the venue of the senior fixture
o In those days I think matches started at 1330 so start time became 1400 to allow for junior fixtures starting at 1000 of 20 overs/side duration. Nowadays senior Grades fixtures start at 1300.
• Remember that there are ECB Guidelines relating to the number of overs bowled in training and in matches by junior players - these apply to pace bowling - i.e. kids bowling as fast as they can.

Random:
• Groundsman training courses are available through Cricket Scotland but unless there were sufficient numbers locally one would probably have to venture to the Central Belt
o I'm intrigued at some comments elsewhere about pitches being so good that teams can hang on for draws as there are some real cabbage patches out there where the batsmen do not have to compete against the opposition bowlers but rather have to compete against the pitch!
• Umpiring training courses are available through CS
o I think we'll pass on DRS in the Grades even although former SDCC Grades player Brent Lockie worked with Clive Lloyd (fa iver he wis!) to develop the infamous DRS.
• Scorer training courses are available through CS
_________________
And there rests the case......................................................... of fine red wine

[gilly]

Mmm. The draw bad. Wasn’t that mentioned by somebody many many moons ago? He must’ve been some Prophet!!

Anyhoo, solution simple. Bring Grades cricket into line with the popular forms of the game, one assumes that’s why they’re popular. Specifically, One day cricket for the longer form, i.e. 40 overs win/lose (bonus points if desired) for Grades games and 20/20 for cup games, this last suggestion is beginning to look increasingly necessary as our pool of available wickets dwindles. On another practical level, reducing the length of our games should attract/retain players without the need to spend 6 or so hours away from your family (even a round of golf takes less!!!).

And Mr Barron is spot on about a Reserve Grade and again, I recall The Prophet was a big advocate of this as well. It irks me that clubs can have 2nd (and even 3rd) elevens in Grades 1-3 and paying minimal fees, whilst a fully paid up club has to play half a season in G4 (it’s happened to Fraserburgh, Methlick and recently Knightriders).

I won’t make any suggestion re. Juniors as my club is a typical recreational club, whose primary aim is to have some competitive (serious) fun at the weekend. That is the remit of our club, any juniors we get, we send to other clubs better equipped to develop them.

The only thing I would say with regards to Juniors and I say it to try and back up my earlier points, is that it must be hard to encourage them to play Grades cricket as it stands as it is not a recognizable format to them, assuming they get their interest in the game from watching the pros on telly.

There will come a time when youngsters will only accept cricket when it’s Crash Bang Wallop 20/20 with music, cheerleaders and coloured kit. As an old Foagy myself, I long for these future days rather than the dusty past.

All praise be to The Prophet!
_________________
And there rests the case......................................................... of fine red wine

[gilly]

the previous 3 posts are all from guys who have the Grades at heart. One main theme is JUNIORS!!!
Weve got to do something to get the kids playing and making it exciting for them!!
_________________
And there rests the case......................................................... of fine red wine

[Big Bad]

Finally some sense...

I know people have huffed and puffed about changes for years and the old draw no draw debate.

But seriously... take a look at the state of the game... its not good folks.

Every season we get students or overseas guys who join the club and are really confused at the rules of the leagues.

More and more people also have evening jobs at weekends too...

Why not consider an earlier start? Start at 11 say? With an understanding that matches can start later on agreement with captains up to 1pm?

The pool of juniors available for teams who are short is a great idea as long as properly managed.

I also like the idea of the 3 grades and a reserve grade which could almost be a development league?

I personally have worked hard with my club over the years and also do so with hockey too for those of you that know me well...

I'd be more than willing to be on any committee with regards to helping develop our local leagues for the better of the game and the players who love it.
_________________
"Captaincy is 90 per cent luck and 10 per cent skill. But don't try it without that 10 per cent."

[Rayner]

I, personally, would like to see, as afore mentioned, three full grades and one, maybe two? reserve grade(s) for development. Having come up through the ranks at SDCC and more recently having led our development XI and seeing some of our great young players come through over the last couple of years, can see the benefit of having a younger based league. Some of our best young players are still in the U11 and U13 age groups, and with lack of players on occasions, are being asked to play in G2, which is not so good for the performance of that team, the enjoyment of the junior, and the development of the junior.

The full grade leagues being 40 overs per side, 20 points for a win, 10 points for a tie, and up to 8? bonus points for a losing side... Or you can look at the CB40 at a higher level and just play Win/Lose/Tie for points and scrap bonus points altogether. With this, you can then follow on with previous suggestions of an earlier start, and then set time limits to an innings. 3 hours for 40 overs shouldn't be an issue?

I think there should be two cups, with a T20 Cup and a 40 over cup, where clubs would have an option to play in these competitions, some teams may wish to enter a T20 Cup but not be so keen on the longer form?

[Lets improve the grades]

Hey guys,

So many good suggestions here i think, from so many different clubs and people who i know genuinely have the future of the game at heart.

Can i just say it looks like there is a genuine feeling that changes are needed to reinvigorate our sport in this area for the good of the game.

So where from here? I guess this is the tricky bit but with so much positive suggestions from all we should move this along and see if the support comes from enough clubs to make a proposal about...

how about i say now we would support the following

List of junior players which with safeguards in place could be used by all teams that are short of players to help make up a team in the grades.

40 overs per side on a saturday grades match.

Grades reformed to 3 grades and a reserve grade (or 2 reserve grades)

Grades 1-3 win or lose only, this is a separate issue as i know how much debate this causes and i don't this to stall everything else...

Cup competitons lots of good ideas i'm willing to support anything which will improve the situation and stop the kind of match that beardy had to deal with...

Ok over to you guys we dont need to go into the details yet just give all the forums readers and supporters of an idea if your club would be willing to give general support to and please add your own ideas that you'd support and see who supports them as well.

The only way to move forward is to work together or it all stays the same... up to you guys... enough support equals proposal at the next AGM hopefully one (or more) that will stand a chance of passing this time.

[MrPurple]

[Duke]

Good call. 40 overs win or lose looks so simple and ticks so many boxes. Why make life complicated.........Quod Erat Demonstrandum

[Raoul]

If we did away with the draw we could implement wet weather rules that make sense. How many games have you played where you knew the rain would come later in the afternoon. You play on and the game gets called early in the second innings. Even though there is a clear winner it's still a void and you may even have to replay it.
It's happened to us at least 6 times in the last couple of seasons and it's a nightmare for all involved. There's an easy solution but not with the draw.
You can get a Duckworth Lewis app on your smart phone now.
_________________
I don't play cricket to feel bad. I play bad cricket and feel good.

[Art]

Going back to the Reid Cup: That’s quite a performance from the lad Mahoney in yesterday’s final, 123 with the bat and 4 for 24 with the cherry.

Most remarkable in that the lad hasn’t featured in any of the Grades match returns for the season so far – he really must be quite the Big Occasion player.

That’s a Cinderella story right there folks, true 'rags to riches' stuff.

[Gman]

A ciderella story to tell the grand children over and over again!

That now is surely the final nail in the coffin of 4 separate grade trophies!

Are Gordonians not embarresed by this??????

Or is that a silly question?
_________________
3RD Team Grade 1.